This is a thread of comments as they appeared on the TopBand reflector after the 1997 160 m CQ SSB Contest: Fellow Topband contesters, From my vantage point here in the deep southwest US, it appeared that the DX window was not observed last night. This is in contrast to the excellent utilization of the window during the CW contest last month. C'mon guys, there are 200 kHz of band to play with. Never heard anyone above 1.950 last night, but many stations making good runs between 1.925 & 1.950. Lots of space at the top end. Milt Jensen, N5IA I agree with Peter DJ8WL the sooner the Contest Committes do something, the better although I doubt if most of those observed outside the band plan will even bother putting in a log. Bob Parkes, 4S7RPG I witnessed, more than once, a big name multi-op station transmitting on 2 frequencies at the same time. Is this permitted? They would put the voice machine in repeat mode on the run frequency while calling DX multipliers on another. Since they could not copy the DX if the run TX was on, it was all synchronized so that both transmitted at the same time. The run frequency was unattended....calls went unanswered. Carl KM1H Since "we are 160"... and most of us believe the power is in the "press" and "peer pressure", what is wrong with using some form of cyberspace to tell the W/VE (non DX ops) who use the so-called window that we don't like it, and they are less than good ops? We all screw up at times, and we must be mindful of this in a torch, flame, missile or what every the operative word of the day happens to be. It is not acceptable behavior for good ops. If a DX station calls inside the window...work em and get out, soonest! The DX should learn, or relearn, to split and not even listen in the "window" anyway. We all share the blame.. even the DX. QSX is authorized. Lynn W4NL Personally, I am not willing to endure all of this to work mostly local stations, but think a SINGLE night (Saturday) of "160 meter Sweepstakes-like" activity could be fun. If there is a concensus in this direction, perhaps it is time to pursue this idea again with the contest committees. By default, the CQ 160 CW contest seems to be the primary 160M DX contest and the CQ 160 SSB contest in February seems to be the 160M SSB Sweepstakes. Perhaps this contest needs to be reevaluated for time and duration as well. It would appear that there is too much "local-activity" based contesting chewing up the short (winter) DX season. Reducing these contests to a single night might be a way to improve both activities. Tom - N4KG I personally do not favor moving the date of the SSB contest to a later date-- QRN is normally so bad even by late February in the South (we've been lucky here the last couple of years) that you must get many calls one letter at a time between static crashes. Moving the contest later in the Spring (or early in the Fall) would make a tough contest simply unbearable. Overall, I've worked probably a dozen countries on 160 SSB that I've never heard on CW, and most of those were nice surprises during the CQ 160 Phone contests. Jon A. Barclay N5JA (ex-AA5BL) Why is it that there must always be one or 2 really stubborn guys that "ruin" the dx window for others? This weekend (from ve1pz) we experienced a very loud, and well recognized W2 on 1835.7 or so with the audio, processor and everything else WIDE open, effectively shunting out the top 1/2 or more of the DX window. He was loud, fine, but there were plenty of others that were a lot louder, but nowhere near as wide. When confronted (by me and others) we had to argue to get him to back the audio down, but 10 minutes later it was again WIDE open. After sunrise in EU, he would move up the band. I can only geuss it was to hinder others' ability to work DX. He sure didn't make many friends this weekend, and you all know who I am talking about. Congratulations John, on an excellent signal, but next time could you please crank the audio levels down to something under the "10"? FYI es W/O malice, -MIKE/ve9aa @ ve1pz station. ************************** Subj: Contest Venting, Windows, etc. (long) Date: 97-02-24 12:44:37 EST From: K3BU To: btippett@ctc.net In a message dated 97-02-23 22:39:54 EST, W4ZV writes: << Please no more posts on this issue until someone steps forward who actually wants to do something rather than wasting bandwidth venting. This is not the intended use of this reflector! >> OK, I volunteer to find out what is the opinion of 160 m contest community on the following issues: (please do not recopy the whole text, just use the item numbers) 1. K4JRB in the 96 results writeup specifically asks in bold: "The CQ Contest Committee is again asking that stations stay out of the window (1.830 - 1.835 MHz) from dusk to dawn local time. .... Please do not park your CQ machine in the window, and have the courtesy to allow others to have a crack at the DX. ... " W2GD "owned" and sat on 1835.7 almost the whole contest. I hoped that maybe they will move some times. Second night, end of Eu opening and they still hog that frequency and wipe out DX window down to 1832. There are few weak stations in there, I am trying to make them out, just as the they say they callsign, here comes the splash from W2GD sideband. Their signal was loud, but overmodulated and overcompressed wiping out the DX window. When I asked them to move up a little bit, I was brushed off. When I said: "would you like me to do to you, what you are doing to DX window?" Operator said: "Yea, go ahead?" So I went up 1837.7 I called CQs. Looks like they didn't like it (wonder why?) After about 15 minutes, W2GD came on my frequency and tried to "negotiate". He said that I am the first one to complain, that they sat on that frequency whole contest and everything was fine, except me. I find that hard to believe, but maybe I was the only one. I gave them "my" frequency and hoped that I freed at least one kHz of DX window for the rest of the contesters. But later they slid to 1836.1 and wide open gain/drive again. After the window closed to Europe, and another argument with WR8C (I think) they moved up the band. EA8ZS, CU2CE and few others were able to make few more people happy with multiplier. In case they didn't know, I tried to reason and explain that if you sit on 1835.7 and transmit on LSB, you are producing signal (depending on quality of TX filtering system) that is reaching down at least 3 kHz (2.1 filter at 6 db, abt 3 kHz at 40 db down + ~300 Hz carrier offset + overdriving) It is illegal to transmit with LSB signal less than 2.7 kHz from the lower end of the phone band, you would be in violation of the rules and could have your license revoked. (New rigs like TS870 allow to use TX DSP processing where you could produce SSB signal that is about 2.3 kHz at 6dB down). So unless you know what the actual width of your SSB signal is, to be safe, one should not transmit below 1802.7. There were few stations who did. Applied to DX window that would mean 1837.7 to be the frequency for the next station up from the window. The "other end" of DX window was "owned since 3pm" by W4MYA at 1829. Clearly "legal" but not making it easy for DX and US hams to work each other. But at least he was 1 kHz below the edge of DX window, so with narrow filter setting and notch you could dig out weak ones between 1801 and 1802. So the question number 1 is: Was I the only one bothered by the above? What is your opinion and what should be done about it, if someone is transmitting signal in the DX window or out of the band? 2. On "owning the frequency". There is about 40 kHz of band on 160 that allows most of the world to communicate on phone (except those who ingore their country regulations as per DJ8WL posting). Divide that by 2 kHz of clean and narrow SSB signals, that gives you about 20 spots, minus 3 for DX window, leaves about 17. Now you get bunch of serious, full powered stations that get on before the contest and claim ownership of the spot, park their CQ machines for the entire contest. The result? They manage to secure the clear channel for themselves, they can hear DX answering them. With DX window wiped out, they are the only ones having a chance to work DX. I had even "funny" one hapened to me. I found a clear spot (!), I started CQing and work a bunch for about 15 minutes. Here comes K3ANS and says: "Can I have my frequency back?" Stunned, not being sure about the ownership rights, I said: I guess, go ahead! and moved on above 1900. Offshoot of "owning" the frequency is, as KM1H pointed out, that some people park their contest machine, without really "being there", while going off to work someone "off their frequency" that did not come to call them. Back in old days, it was that when the pileup dried up, you would go and hunt, someone else would get on and have run for a while, or when DX called you and manged to wrestle frequency from you, you kinda "oh well" gave up, demand outvoted you and you moved on. I feel sorry for those who go on the contest expedition only to find out that band has been already taken, and there is no room for them! The question number 2 is: How do you feel about "owning" the frequency? Should station "have right" to particular spot for the entire contest? What should we do about it? Would wider DX window on SSB help? How does it look at the other side of the pond? 3. There is seems to be a trend to "push and bend" the rules, not only in ham radio, but all the way to the presidential office. Is this the sign of the times? Is this OK? Am I old fashioned and out of touch? I used to be involved in "normal" sports (played team handball in Czechoslovakian League) and all sports have the rules. YOU HAD TO PLAY BY THE RULES or you were penalized, disqualified, thrown out. That's what the rules are for. If we have the game (contesting) with rules, we should play by the rules. Otherwise where is the limit? Does someone think that by being "clever" by getting around or plainly violating the rules is OK? Should we get into the race who is "more clever" and can run more power, stake out the frequency week ahead and wipe out the DX window for rest of the contesters? We were self policing, considerate, gentlemen, some even knights of contesting, proud of our clean victories, big or small. I have been out of ham radio for 10 years, did things change in the mean time? The question number 3 is: Should we have rules and PLAY by the rules? Should those found in violation of the rules be punished, (suspended license, disqualified, ?) and how do we go about it? Should the members of contest committee do some observing, policing, and remainding violators that they are out of line? I had the warm feeling about VE3EJ operation and I was proud of my fellow VE. He demonstrated this contest and in the past that you can win while obeying the rules and ethics. He had clean signal, moved around and sounded like a true contest knight in contrast to some others who looked like a garbage trucks on the Daytona 500 track. Sorry for the bandwidth (where else does it belong? it' s160 and contesting), but I feel things are getting bit out of hand, and I hope that we can continue to be self policing and behave by the rules. We are not going to attract more people to contesting and ham radio with behaviour like that. I have lost interest in DXing and DXCC way back when lists came on scene. (In case you have not noticed, I haven't even tried to work VK0IR etc. - leaving DXers more chance). Is contesting going to be poisoned by few too? I was sorry to see W2GD to be the one in question. I admire John's ability and results, but it saddens me that fellow NewJersian and FRCer couldn't see anything wrong with the way his team operated. Nothing personal, just hoping that this would shed some light on obviously growing problems. Wonder what John thinks about this after the contest heat cools off. To those who were going to flame me being sore loser, save the electrons: "Yea, I am a sore loser, I wanted to beat W2GD with my dipole in the trees, one 150 ft slinky and low power, and darn!, I could not do it. So here it is - sour grapes." Sooo, if I am out of wack here, I can see two routes: one - croll under the rock and leave the "contesting" to those who enjoy it the way it is going, or - two - get "competitive" and beat them at all costs regardless of rules (if it's OK). That means for the next one - go more east, get some phased beverages to reject rest of you poor suckers of the back, set up 8-square, or if needed 16-square (each with own Lampedusa 400W amplifier), park on 1835.1 week before the contest and wait for the starting bell. Wonder who can top that? (Well, I can think of few "clever" things, but won't mention it here not to plant some wacky ideas.) Personally, I like the idea of self policing and gentlemanly behaviour, it is a hobby - sport, lets be considerate and ALL have fun and make inviting for others and not to turn people off. Lets push the limit with technology and skill and not with rude and inconsiderate behaviour. I think that Trophy would then shine much brighter and fellow competitors would admire the champ. If you care, please replay directly to me, I will try to summarize and make the results available on home pages and if graciously permited by W4ZV even on 160m reflector. I hope this helps to make our sport better, more enjoyable and invite more bearers of contest points. Isn't that what we want? de Yuri, K3BU, VE3BMV, one of N2EE **************************** Good for you. First off, a 5 kHz DX window is a joke! Even more so in an SSB contest. For SSB, 1830 to 1850 should be reserved for DX stations calling CQ. For CW, it should be 1830 to 1840. 73 Tree N6TR Dear Yuri, Being a sometimes contest freak and a full time dx freak, I can see both sides of the argument. In my opinion the only solution is to have a complete CONTEST FREE ZONE ON EVERY BAND. Such a zone will have to be monitored by each of us, and a proven violation of the zone will result in instant disqualification of the offending station. Is there any other way?? Mick..W4YV 1. No, you were NOT the only one bothered by the operation you described. If the CQ Contest Committee has defined 1.830-1.835 as a DX window for this contest, then stations violating that use of the window should be disqualified without further discussion. That specifically includes W2GD this weekend, who wiped out half of the window for use by the rest of us. As a more general statement, I am in favor of having such a DX window ALL the time, and the window should be defined as excluding 1.830-1.835 for same-continent CW and 1.830-1.838 for same-continent LSB QSOs, for the bandwidth reasons you have already described. 2. I know of no reasonable way to stop strong stations from having control of a frequency except perhaps by instituting Sprint rules. One reason I don't operate SSB contests very much is that it is much easier for me to find a suitable 'run' frequency on a good band on CW. I believe some multi-operator setups abuse frequency control, just as you have described. If everyone played by the rules, eventually even these powerhouses would have to leave the frequency and do S&P to get some of the multipliers they need, but now it appears stations are putting two signals on the band at one time. Sad. 3. Yes, you're old fashioned and out of touch. Yes, 'pushing and bending' is a sign of the times. No, it's NOT OK. Yes, we should have rules and we should play by the rules. And the contest sponsor should effectively enforce the contest rules. But how? On the one hand I agree with your concerns, but on the other hand I enjoy running stations myself when I can. So I don't want every contest to be like the Sprint. How do we craft some rules that distinguish between acceptable and unacceptable pushing and bending? Some other comments: I would like to see a voluntary bandplan advertised and supported. I am a contester, a DXer, and a traffic handler (usually CW in each case) and I enjoy 160 for all three of those -- except this weekend when 160 was useless for CW. During most of the contest period, at least 50 kHz at the top of 160 was vacant or very sparsely occupied by ragchewers. Why, then, is it necessary for SSB operations to start at 1.800 MHz? Somebody (from Europe, I believe) is promoting a CW segment of 1.810-1.838, if I remember correctly. Why can't we agree on that or something similar for 365 days of the year? And if necessary, add an SSB DX window above 1.838? Someone commented that this contest was really a Sweepstakes. Well, not quite. It's a Sweepstakes with a scoring structure that guarantees an advantage for W/VE entrants located near the oceans. But the observation is basically sound and lends additional support to the idea of band plans for CW versus phone and for contesting versus DXing and other uses. I do not agree that DXing is the ONLY valid use of 160 during the good winter months or at sunset and sunrise. Contest operators and traffic handlers also prefer to do their operating when the conditions are good. But if we as a 'community' could voluntarily accept the idea of a phone sub-band on 160 the same way we in the USA have phone sub-bands by law for the HF bands, and/or if we could voluntarily accept the idea of limiting contest operation to a temporary 'sub-band' (the same way we in W/VE used to do for the CD Parties and to a lesser extent do for the ARRL SS), then all users of 160 could co-exist on these contest weekends and many of the gripes would go away. I hope that the responses to your message will include some clever and new solutions to these growing problems. I look forward to seeing what you collect. Bud, K2KIR Great comments, Yuri! I gave up on 160 meter contesting 5 years ago because of this crap. Phil K6EID 1) Everyone should remeber this is just a hobby, too often we forget that in the heat of battle. When it stops being fun then Quit! Winning is not worth loosing your health to high blood pressure. 2) I think we should increase the DX window to 10 khz from 5khz especially for SSB contest. 3) I think a mandatory QSY rule similuar to the Sprint contests is a much fairer way to resolve the issue of frequency ownership. 4) NO, you were NOT required to give the frequency back to K3ANP. Next time just asks him politely what drugs he has been smoking and then call CQ without waiting for an answer! 5) I strongly support a mandatory band world wide plan which would eliminate SSB from the bottom 40KHz of 160 M period. Not everyone wants to operate SSB on 160. for us CW ops the band was totaly lost for the entire weekend. Dave, N7EX Can't believe it, but I totally agree with you. Yes, W2GD did to WR8C basically what k3ans did to you. WR8C asked if the frequency was in use then 5 minutes later W2GD comes on and says that this is his frequency and to go away. Well, thanks to CU2CE W2GD lost that battle. I vote to exclude US and VE between 1800 and 1850 next year. This way the rest of the world can have fun in this contest too. Also, you didn't mention K3CR (another wide signal) sitting on top of IK4IEE (who was very strong) on 1840.5 for many hours preventing him for working US/VE and N5JA sitting on F5GTR who was also very strong. Pat Collins, K8LR Like you said, if you don't play by the rules, then you are penalized or disqualified. I would like to see the window expanded to 1830-40 but it would be hard to implement. I think you probably saw my earlier post regarding w2gd, and have already been chastized about it. Big Heads like W2GD, KM1H, W4MYA(?) don't want to be told how to operate. A big signal is a license to break the rules at all costs. Operate on the edge of the window with megga audio and splatter so less powerful stations can't hear and work the DX like you. Not only that, you create a quiet RX window for yourself by being loud ! Rules are beginning to be a joke as they are not enforced. I am behind you in your venture!!! -MIKE, ve9aa (op of ve1pz) Honestly, is this really necessary? Yuri, this piece is accusatory and comdems and convicts without the benefit of due-process. The constant whining about the window really is sickening. Not only do you want a window, you want gaurd channels. When are where will it end? There is no need to name those as you have. The majority of your responses will be from the "whiners and cry-babys." Be careful how you report the results. I suspect the mnajority of the readers may just delete your message like I almost did. I sure hope this ends soon. Craig, NX1G Yuri and the Topbanders, Sportsmanship goes out the window when it is impossible. Once you get a couple hundred contacts in the log in this contest, it is hard to find new stations at a good rate by tuning around. To be competitive, you must CQ most of the time. You have pointed out the problem with the CQWW 160 SSB contest. The band is not big enough to support the activity level. There will always be frequency fights when you try to cram 5000 stations onto 100kHz(or even 200kHz, if you include the fairly DX-free upper section of the band), especially on 160 where there is no skip zone. In most contests, the activity level and large number of well-equipped stations usually makes for an increase in the amount of DX workable. I think CQWW 160 CW is in this category, and I really enjoyed being part of the WW2Y operation, working over 400 DX stations and quite a few of them "quality" contacts, rarely made under any conditions. I am proud of the fact that we engineered our station so that it was impossible to transmit on 2 frequencies at once. The activity level in the CQWW 160 SSB only masks the DX that would be possible without the QRM. This contest will always resemble a bar-room brawl more than anything else. The window problem is purely a case of not defining it well enough. Every year people get on 1835.5 but the rule has not been defined to prevent that interpretation. In fact, the interpretation of, "I am calling for DX, so I can be on 1834 if I want" has only recently been dealt with. The window rule should state exactly what countries should be CQing in it, and what range of carrier frequencies should be permitted. The original intent of the window is for stations outside of NA and EU to be able to work those areas, so really both NA and EU should be excluded if the goal is to make Asia, Africa, and South America more workable. It is a shame if someone cannot find an alternative activity to 160 meter DXing on this contest weekend. I don't find this contest fun at all, so I just chose to use the OFF switch on my rig, and my wife appreciated the company this weekend. Obviously some people are having fun with this contest, so I will not suggest its elimination from the calendar, as I have always felt was the thing to do. Rob K2WI This is a Top Band/Contesting (.com) Reflector. At the risk of offending our top band administrator, who is a also a well known avid contester, I will summarize the personal replies I received to my message asking "Why do we have to tolerate a %#@&$*+ S. S. style contest on 160M" in the middle of the prime 160M DX season. To summarize, There were 12 personal replies from people who agreed with me. The replies varied from a single word "Amen!" to several longer messages castigating the CQ and ARRL sponsors or re-phrasing my gripe, some with even stronger language. One lone dissenting reply suggested I was being "selfish" in wanting to eliminate winter time contests on 160 since there are so few days for contests compared to the number of days with no contests. In the interest of brevity I will stop here. This controversy is as old as I am. It is mainly between the younger gung-ho types and us old guys. I am sorry if I triggered some excess bandwidth. It is evident that many non-U.S. DXers also agree about the wasted DX days. Probably nothing will change without a group effort. And group efforts have failed before. Too bad "ethnic cleansing" is not permitted here. Dave--N4SU No Yuri, you weren't the only one bothered. W2GD was clearly operating in the DX window. I heard part of your discussion with a very beligerant W2GD operator who graciously moved up 500 hz! Still clobbering the DX window. I feel there are two reasons for this type of operation. First, there are big egos involved. These egos breed arrogance...the might makes right syndrome. "I'm a Big Gun contester therefore I can operate any- where I want and no one can tell me any different". Secondly, there seems to be an inability for the contest sponsors to enforce their own rules. I don't know why....lawsuits perhaps. I can't remember when any- one was disqualified for ANY reason. This reluctance to enforce rules gives stations like W2GD free reign to do as they please and the heck with anyone else. Is there a solution? I am going to write to CQ and ask that W2GD be disqualified. Failing this I will cancel my subscription. I feel that they need my subscription money a lot more than I need their magazine. If those that are ofended by this type of operation do likewise, it will have a big impression on contest sponsors. What's it going to be folks...rules or anarchy? Roger, N1RJ Yuri, I AGREE!! Clearly, W2GD wiped out the dx window! It bothered lots of people. W4MYA on the other edge didn't help either. Maybe the window is too small, but no excuse for W2GD. I think his score should be disqualified and that all those sending in their scores should say just that! Years ago, when DX station came on outside the window, people would step aside to let others work the stn. Not this time. Seems like too many EGOs on the band. As for owning the freq, most think that after the visit to the toilet and refrig, the freq is still theirs. Some of Those people were found just above W2GD's freq. I won't mention calls. I made 400+ Q's and I got to study the band pretty well. I think a few spoiled it for everyone. It was nice to meet old friends and new ones here on the reflector. Clearly, changes need to be made and it should start with W2GD. As George Bush said, we need to draw a line in the sand!! I would hope that W2GD will lead by example next weekend; and not do a repeat performance. Like most on the band, I am a little pistol with 38 yrs experience trying to work DX. Tnx for stepping up to tackle this issue. 73 Dave W4JVN Yuri: I agree to some extent with much of your posting on the Topband Reflector. I was disappointed to see the U.S. stations camped in and around the DX window, as it made it impossible to hear the dx stations most of the time. I was only able to hear and work a few stations in the window due to the local congestion and splatter. I would like to see the dx window expanded to a 10 khz window and change the contest rules so that no points are awarded for working a station in one's own country. After all, this is supposed to be a DX contest! I would also like to hear what stations in Europe, South America, Asia, Oceania think about the current contest format. Let's not kill the contest, let's just make it more of a DX contest. No more "anybody, anywhere" CQ's! Tim Hayes, K5TH 1. Not in this particular contest--I am so disgusted by it that I virtually did not operate in it. DQ him. 2. The only thing that can be done is to make the rules modelled on the Sprint--you work someone, you move. That's the end of CQ machines. 3. Absolutely, without question Disqualify first-offenders from the contest. Suspend second offenders from the contest. Ban third offenders from the contest. I agree, but many play in this "hobby" like others were taking bread from the mouths of their children---like ham radio was just another jungle. Garry Shapiro, NI6T Really what we need is for the Whole World to open 160 from 1800 to 2000......and then the DX and the USA CQ machines could all spread out a bit.....and still leave a bit of band for the "non-contesters" John K9UWA / P40WA Dan K8RF has stepped forward and volunteered to collect your opinions about the CQ 160 SSB contest, dates, window rules, etc. Since there are a number of you who are only on this reflector, we are going to solicit responses on both the CQ-Contest and Topband reflectors. Dan is going to collect and organize the responses, and then summarize for all of us. Since Dayton is not too far away, maybe that will be an opportunity to present his findings to the CQ Contest Committee. There has been some discussion on the CQ-Contest Reflector about moving the date for the CQ CW WPX Contest so our timing may be ideal (hmmm...how about swapping dates for the CQ WPX CW and the CQ 160 SSB?). Please send your inputs on CQ 160 SSB contests TO DAN AT wt8n@fuse.net AND NOT TO THIS REFLECTOR. All inputs and ideas are welcomed from big guns, little pistols, contesters and DX'ers alike. Here's your chance guys! Let's hear some constructive comments. Bill W4ZV 2.No one stn, can own a freq, when propagation changes and someone else shows up, lets say ON4UN for example, started the contest on 1840 and also KM1H also started the contest on 1840, and lets say there were no condx at the start, so they dont hear each other, suddenly bang band open 2 big signals at the same time, i am quite sure those 2 gentelmen would agree no one would win and would change qrg a little, (or would they?). But this is an example of "no" one stn, owning a freq. 3. Yes, plain and simple yes, not only will doing this give the lower power stn's a better shot but will also statisfy the NON-Contest community one hell of a lot more. Here in EU, the behaviour of many stn.s was in my opinion appalling, mostly operating where they should not. Maybe the bandplan has changed but according to IARU regon 1 bandplan as adopted at the region 1 Conferance April 1990, 1810-1840MHz Only CW, so considering that we in PA may only transmit 1810-1850 then my next paragraph is maybe a little TO far feached for 160 meters, but could very well be applied to other contests. [ Pasted from another mail i sent earlier to another Ham.] What would it take to monitor parts of these bands, not very much, because IF a rule was made about, "Get caught out of band" X points deducted, or disqualification in an extream case, a lot of Hams will stay out of forbidden areas, so just a few monitoring stn's would be enough. How about all the swl's that take part in a contest, they could do a very nice job on this one, under a watchfull eye of some Contest group/body. Nice to see someone else getting up on the old "soap box", i am a Contester but the sort of behaivour i experianced this last weekend i found to intollerable. What got my back up was not being able to do any CW last weekend, but i am the sort of chap who just steps down and does not normaly complain, so i just gave away a few points had a couple of beers went to 80, got tyred so i biked 3 miles home at 4 in the morning. Do not forget we (or so it seems) are contesters complaining about our own sort, how about after an 48 hours CQWW contest, all the packet messages about folks out of band being insluted etc etc.. Richard, pa3gcu < W2GD "owned" and sat on 1835.7 almost the whole contest. >> The appropriate contest commitee should be lobbied to disqualify W2GD. Bob AA9DX (Top Band Antenna Impaired) You make a couple good points. I did not participate in this 'test because its no fun on SSB. Too much noise from us at stateside. First, why in the world did you "give someone their freq" back?? Last I checked no one owns a freq. Thats why we all have VFO's. As far as I can see there is no rule about staying on one Freq all contest long. True, it may not be sportsmanlike, but no rule or guideline says its wrong. now it is a bit frustrating when they sit there hour after hour and get only a few answers. It does clog up the band for others. But how can you write a rule about that and be fair? Probably can't. The DX window on 160 is probably the least observed window around. Normally DX can be found all over the band. At least in the CW contest its fairly clear of US stations but for SSb even if they don't transmit in it they can sure cover it up. My suggestion is to turn the radio off for the SSb weekend. Its just not worth the trouble. Personally I see some merit in eliminating this contest. There are other opportunities to use the Mike on 160. It does indeed eliminate at least one weekend of prime DXing on 160. On the other hand, some may feel the same about the CW weekend so, I guess let each mode have their time. I think you did the right thing by asking the stations to move. Its a shame they could not control the modulation. Its a shame they could not see the merit in moving to open the window. But, I dont think the rules would fix this. Such is DXing, hamming and life. Just my humble opinion. Ron, N4XD Yuri, Well stated. The same thing happened last year. Sooo I just didn't operate this year. Ur correct about breaking the rules, some seee it as pressing the envelope, I see it as cheating. It happens in the VHF contests, down to 160M contests. Not sure what the solution is, but I appreciate you bringing it out in the open. Fairness is all I'm looking for. If hams read and abided by the amateur code, (which is very much like the Boy scout law) we wudn't have these problems. 73 Denis, W4DC, VP2MFM Hello again Yuri, Hurrah for one who has the "huevos" to say it correctly. My responses follow. 1. NO YOU WERE NOT. HE WAS THE BIGGEST OFFENDER, BUT THERE WERE OTHERS WHO DID THE SAME THING. THEY SHOULD BE DISQUALIFIED......... ANYONE WORKING THEM SHOULD HAVE QSO DELETED. 2.YES, A WIDER WINDOW WOULD HELP. I RECOMMEND 1.83 TO 1.85 WITH 2 KHZ GUARDBAND AT EACH END. ABOUT OWNING A FREQ, I FEEL THAT THE FIRST PERSON ON A FREQ HAS THE "RIGHT" TO IT UNTIL HE RELINQUISHES IT. HOWEVER, IF A PERSON LEAVES A FREQ, EVEN FOR ONE MINUTE TO WORK A STATION SOMEWHERE ELSE, THEN HE GIVES UP THE FREQ. PROPER OPERATING PROCEDURE DICTATES THAT THE ORIGINAL STATION NO RETURN AND INTERFERE WITH A STATION WHO HAS STARTED SINCE HE LEFT. THIS PART IS VERY HARD TO CONTROL, AND REALLY DEPENDS ON PERSONAL VALUES AND OPERATING HABITS. 3. NO YOU ARE NOT OLD FASHIONED AND OUT OF TOUCH. TRUTH AND HONESTY NEVER CHANGE YES, THE RULES SHOULD BE WRITTEN SUCH THAT VIOLATORS WILL BE DISQUALIFIED. ALSO, ANYONE WORKING ANYONE WHO IS IN VIOLATION (SUCH AS WORKING INSIDE A WINDOW) WOULD LOSE CREDIT FOR THAT QSO. THE SPONSORING ENTITY SHOULD HAVE THEIR PROPERLY TRAINED AND APPOINTED OBSERVERS. 73 de Milt, N5IA. I liked your observations and agree on almost all points. I am not a "fone" type, so perhaps my opinions are subjective. 1.I listen during the phone contests, but do not participate actively. I try to give a point here and there to folks that I know and those I perceive to be good operators. I will not work any station parked near the window. Not even a friend. I think we need to have a wider window. I also think that phone operation should be restricted to 1850 and above, however tough on the rest of the world. 2.Nobody owns a frequency. I do not advocate malicious interference, but there are often other ways to make your presence known. You demonstrated one of them. There are others. I usually give up a frequency if some other rude operator feels he needs it worse. I do not see much point in arguing and I see no point in having "pissing" contests, as I sometimes observe. I do keep a list of rude operators and try very hard not to work them in the future. 3.I dislike scofflaws intensely. Our President even demonstrates it when he plays golf by "his" rules. It seems to be a disease of the young, but not exclusively. By all means, we must have rules and then play by them. Enforcement is another problem because of variation in perception, propagation and a lot of other factors. It cannot be unilatterally applied, unfortunately. I do not have a good answer to the problem. And contrary to what Mr. Reflector Diktator says, I think the points of this discussion are subjects for the reflector. I do not always agree with his strict ideas on what is acceptable to the reflector, but he is the administrator, not I. Didn't he just finish a stint at W3LPL?(CW weekend). And wasn't he also parked right on the edge of the wi